Scaling Up with RevOps w/ Jason Reichl

The Sales Lift Episode #29 with Jason Reichl

Tyler: [00:00:00] live nation. It's Tyler Lindley the host here today. I have Jason Reichl with go nimbly on, Hey Jason, how you doing today?

Jason: [00:00:11] I am doing as expected. I mean, it's morning. I've had my coffee. We had a great pre chat. So I'm feeling pretty stoked for the conversation of the day to get started.

Tyler: [00:00:21] Yeah, me too.

I'm excited as well. Yeah. So, Jason is the CEO and co-founder of go nimbly, which he's been doing for some years now. And they're doing some exciting work in the rev ops space, initially the business stack space, but it has morphed into revenue operations. That's what we're going to focus on today. We're doing a series nag now with rev ops.

We just had Taft Love on from iceberg ops. So Jason, I'd love to hear your thoughts on just what does rev ops mean to you?

Jason: [00:00:48] Yeah, sure. So I think revenue operations is a methodology focused on getting the value out of the customer by delivering a personalized experience for the customer.

And so what that really means is that revenue operators are for lack of a better word, the director, the boom mic holder the entire back office of your revenue team. Which I think the revenue team is sales, marketing, customer success. Anyone that touches the customer in behalf of the sales process or trying to get the customer part of the sales process is to me, part of your go to market team.

And I call the whole function to go to market team. So you have your revenue aspects, your frontline actors, and then you have your back office people who their job is to make sure that the buying experiences are as personalized and a seamless to your buyers as possible.

We found through our own research that buyers in the B2B space. Cause that's where we operate a B2B SaaS show up at your website with about 75% certainty that they want to buy your product. So we're no longer in the age of digital information where they have done all the research when they come to you. They actually know they want to buy ZenDesk as an example.

And what they're deciding is how much to fill their bag full. And every gap in that personalized experience is a request of your organization that you're don't know you're making for them to put their political capital on the line. And that's why we don't get longer deals. So we don't get across the entire company.

That is why we do pilots. It's all of those factors. And while, new businesses net down during COVID, I think it's really important to focus on how to maximize the customers who say yes, A hundred percent. So that's a long definition to say it's a methodology that it's about maximizing the value for the customer.

Tyler: [00:02:33] You mentioned 75% of folks already knowing they pretty much want to buy. How do you think that's impacted marketing teams, sales teams, success teams. How has that impacted those teams? If clients are coming to you pretty much, you know, their hands already up. They're ready. The wallets out. You just got to get them to the finish line.

How has that impacted the entire revenue

Jason: [00:02:51] buying process that revenue operations is catching on twofold is because there's a lot of waste in our industry around SAS, around the BDR to AE, to marketing, to customer success, handoff processes. There's a lot of waste. That's all put under the customer to experience and two, I think that ultimately these customers, what they're looking for is how can this.

Piece of software or service I'm buying tangibly, make my company more money. And so when they come to you, what they're really looking for you to do is meet them where they are at. So there is a whole set of tools out there now, and processes and methodologies and why it's so critical to break down silos because silos in themselves are.

This is where you keep the corn. This is where you keep the wheat. This is where you and the customers have to go from silo to silo getting their goods. And that's not really what they want to do. They want you to tell them how much corn they need and how much of this they need, but they want to feel like that is a straight line process.

And we in the industry know it's not a straight line process to service customers, but that is how we want to buy something. We want to go into Walmart. We want to walk around and put stuff in our shopping cart and checkout. It doesn't matter how that store came to be or how complicated it was to do the CPG packaging or whatever was customers.

We don't give a shit. You just want that, that, that experience, same thing that customers in B2B SAS want, that we've found. And so what they're really looking for is can you meet them where they're at, if they're on your website, And they are looking at pricing. Can someone not say, "Hey, can I help you" through a chat bot?

But I see you're looking at pricing. I see you've done this. Do you have specific questions? Here's the questions I would be asking if I were you. That's me and your customer in a personalized way, which is shit. Not only do they know who I am, but they also know what I'm going to be asking next. So it's the way to interject yourself into that process.

If the difference between you're in Best Buy. And again, I always go back to consumer goods companies who are servicing the public, the difference between an associate who walks up to someone and go. Oh do you need any help with anything while you're looking at Apple computers and the person who comes up to you and sees it looking Apple computers and go, do you have any specs about that Apple computer?

You're looking at? It's a very different personal life. It's okay, I know it's your job to help me versus, Oh, you're taking interest in what I'm interested in. And I think that is the key to the future of sales, which is you have to meet your customers where they are, and you have to show that, you know, why they're interested in it and show a level of empathy that, that B2B SAS is terrible at showing.

And so that ultimately is where I think we're at and where. Businesses need to focus their time, energy.

Tyler: [00:05:33] You talk about personalization. Also, you know, context comes to mind for these organizations that are falling flat that are just coming up to the customer and saying,

Jason: [00:05:42] how can I help you today?

Tyler: [00:05:43] Versus coming with personalization, coming with context, coming with data, they probably already have that. They may or may not be using it. What's the first step in starting down that path of giving a personalized buying experience where we are

Jason: [00:05:55] today. It's separating intent and engagement. And understanding

those are two fundamentally different attributes for urgency. So you may have Jason Reichl the person on your website HubSpot reading all of your content every single day. That doesn't mean that Jason Reichl has the authority to buy HubSpot. It doesn't mean that he's maybe even interested in HubSpot, but he's engaged.

So marrying that with intent data about the account itself to say, Oh, we see go nimbly. Not just Jason Reichl, but Go Nimbly is interested in HubSpot marrying those two things together. And in my opinion, this is not what we do, but it is something that I am implementing across my organization. And I'm going to write blog posts about.

Is, we need a new it's not about lead scoring anymore. It's not about any of that. It's about. Is this account showing that they had the propensity to buy and do we have engagement from key people within that account? And once you do that model, and let's say you have engagement from the intent from the account, but not people engage from the account because you don't know who they are.

You know that's probably going to be a straight out cold out play that BDRs can run because they can use the leverage of information with intent data to try to get the engagement from the people. And it shouldn't be trying to book a meeting. It should just be trying to get them to engage the content where they're at, because if they wanted to book a meeting, they would have already booked a meeting.

That's the core philosophy that you have to understand. If you got individuals are looking for, they're already engaged, but you don't have an account. You don't have enough people at the account actually engaged. What you needed to do was run a marketing, play, run a campaign where you run direct ads against everyone in that organization.

So it's very much about those two levers when it comes to how to engage with customers, that's not what revenue operations is about. Revenue operations can make that process work, but ultimately the personalization that I talk about comes to that, which is. Does your organization have the propensity to buy, right?

Are you not window shopping? And have you walked past our window into our store several times. And we'd gotten you engaged that way because buying, even at the B2B experience, it's very personal, especially during COVID because it's, someone's going to go sink $280,000 into salesforce.com.

For a year, they are risking their job in a time of uncertainty. And for us to be as flippant in this industry, as we have been in the past about, Oh, it's only fucking $15,000 a month or $20,000 a month. Our minimum program, I go nimbly is 30 K a month. So I take that very seriously. Our most inexpensive customer is buying a.

Two Honda fits from us every single month. That is not something to be taken lightly and they should demand a level of experience that equates to that. Imagine how you, what kind of experience you would demand if you went and bought two Honda fits out of a car lot. Right now, you'd be like, why are people not kissing my feet?

Like I'm here to buy two Honda fits, like how many people do that. And so ultimately it's really important to understand that the people, the buyers that we have, even in the B2B space, Our people and they deserve to have a personalized experience and you should. There will be some point in your company's career.

When you need to ask your customer to give you political capital, usually during upsell or cross sell, usually at a product SAS company, whenever you're building a new product into market, into your, everybody bows platforms these days. So we're building a new feature into our platform that nobody asked for, and we need people to actually go out and purchase it.

And you, that's the time you want to use your political capital, not when they're already excited about buying your product. And they already have pain around ticket management, right? Zen desk should not be using political capital around the core aspect of what their product is actually great at. Now.

They want people to buy their CRM system that they acquired, which was base, and they're still integrating into their entire platform. Maybe you need to lose a little political capital there. So I think that's too many SAS companies. Utilize political capital too early on in the relationship with the consumer.

And I think that ultimately we just, our kid continuously run into this gap where it, another thing I fundamentally hate about SAS organizations is the model of land and expand. I think that is a code word for. Let's get some users on our system and just do whatever it takes. Because whenever I asked those organizations, okay, what's your plan to expand?

Did they never have an answer to that? They always are quick to say if I go, why is your LTV so much lower or your is so much lower compared to your other peers in your industry? Oh, because we have a land and expand model. Okay, cool. So when does your ACV become higher than their LTD? Oh, it never does because you actually don't have a clear plan on what the strategy actually looks like from a buying experience for your customer.

You just get them in and then you hope that you see so much value in your product that they will actually expand themselves. That is not a reality that exists in COVID times. And I think it's a reality that didn't exist before. But it's definitely something that doesn't exist in this new paradigm that we're moving to.

Tyler: [00:10:51] No, I totally agree. Yeah. And I do think a lot of people are running that land and expand play, but if you're not doing it intentionally. Then what are you really doing? I mean you're landing and hoping versus landing expanding. If there's not intention. I also agree with your point about political capital though uh, versus trying to show every tool that you have under, you know, in the toolkit at one, say, let's just, let's bundle all this together.

Versus trying to solve an immediate problem. I think that trust is built over time. And let's be honest, when you buy from a company for the first time, it's not that a hundred percent level of trust. I mean, you're still getting to know that company. You're still wanting to see how that experience goes.

What does onboarding look like? Do they have a good support program? Can I get answers that I need? And what does renewal look like? There's all these things that have to happen where you're building capital, you're building support. You're building that energy over time versus, trying to. Shoot your shot right from the get go.

I think that some companies miss and trying to do too much too soon, or on the flip side, the land and expand doing too little and having no plan to expand. I mean, it's like it's two

Jason: [00:11:53] sides of the coin. See companies do the most is create objection, handling for things that their customers are not actually asking.

And they plant the seed in their customer's mind of, Oh shit. Maybe this is not safe for me. Or maybe I need to go a different route. Lack of true. And this is not about rev ops, but lack of true understanding and empathy for where the customer is. And only meeting the customer where they're at not going beyond that is a problem that, that plagues our industry.

There are certain sales and marketing people who want their customer to know everything about the hotdog factory. And there's some who want to obscure everything from them. And the reality is. Maybe Jason Reichl loves to take factory tours, and maybe I want to see the ends insides and outs. And if I asked that and you obscure that you're not delivering me the experience I need.

On the flip side, maybe Jason Reichl, doesn't give a shit about that. And he just wants to use Zendesk in order to get some tickets solved because he has a plethora of issues blowing up inside of the software company. So you should always meet the customer where they're at, but you should always know that.

Anytime they've experienced the gaps. Subconsciously they have ticked off some amount of money pot that you. That you have eroded from them. And I do think it's the job of the sales team to create urgency within the sales cycle. And I do think it's the job of the sales and marketing team to figure out how to sell to individuals once they're in the pipeline.

But I think it's the job of revenue operators to learn from each buying experience and go, this is how this person actually engage. They are our target kinds of accounts. How do we do more of that to get to more yeses? I think so much of operations. And so much of sales is focused on prospecting that we don't do enough analysis on the ones that we won.

The ones that actually said yes. They are your most important information source to getting more yeses. It's like imagining you have this incredible strength. And it said double down on your strength. All you do is go to your weaknesses. You just focus on all the nos and you go, if I could just turn 10% of nos into yeses.

Good luck with that. Cause you might get one or 2% of that. What you could do instead is increase the value of the SS increase the overall value of that to you. And yeah, you're in. Your, maybe your growth numbers won't look as good, but this is why go nimbly really believes in building sustainable businesses and SAS, your revenue numbers will look better.

And so ultimately, I think revenue operations is for organizations and we do find that second time founders. Third time founders are typically are the ones who are most interested in revenue operations, because they have the clout with their investment team to say, we're going to run a very solid business from the very beginning, and we're not going to have to climb that plateau.

From growth to not profitability, but growth to business, right? Let's not be talking about probability. Some organizations will never be profitable and that's built into their model and that's okay. But a lot of them have to cannot climb the wall from growth to actual scalable business because that wall gets so steep for them.

Yep. And I think putting revenue operations in early in a, in an, a revenue operations mindset early, which is, this is about the customer buying experience, not the customer journey. Customer journey is a. Spy word for how we would love a customer to move through our business. But a customer buying experience was actually look how they bought our product and how they found us, who they interacted with.

When do we think they actually said the deal and let's find commonalities and patterns between all of our yeses. That's how revenue operations actually moves the needle for an organization.

Tyler: [00:15:13] It's funny, you mentioned customer journey. It is something that's talked about a lot where this you've got this customer journey mapping, and they're going to go from step a, to B, to C, and it's going to be so pretty and seamless and every customer is going to go through that same exact process.

And it's the old phrase, everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth and then all of a sudden the customer starts throwing curve balls at you. And while we're not going to, according to plan now, Oh, am I giving a personalized buying experience now? What does their experience look like?

Oh, it's cause we're way off. We're way off the track of what we thought would happen. What's actually happening. And how can we learn from it? How can we grow from it? One of the things that you mentioned in our pre-chat was when you started Go Nimbly, You were focused on the business stack, you were focused on, you mentioned focusing on the technology so much, and now you've transitioned to rev ops.

Why did you make that transition and why is technology not important in revenue operations or what is technology's place? The tech stacks place in solving the rev ops problem.

Jason: [00:16:07] Great question. The four skills of revenue operation before what I call meta skills. And now there's tons of skills underneath those, but then the four main ones, which any organization should want to build a healthy balance of these four skills.

And we find that they don't. So this is a good thing to talk about is strategy tools, enablement insights. Strategy is business processes, the way that you actually attack the market, how you are aligned, it's all the fundamental strategies that get implemented into tools. Tools are very important tools.

Don't always just look like technology. Sometimes they look like frameworks and methodologies and sales processes. Those are all tools. That's not strategy. BANT is not a strategy, BANT is a tool. And so these kinds of tools are used and really as if the solid strategies, they're the tool you use doesn't matter.

So is it important? Absolutely. Because it's how you can deliver at scale. But tools themselves aren't important. So then the most irritating question you could ask me as a host of a podcast is what tool is really important to rev ops? And I go, that doesn't matter, right? Tools are important. Having a utility that no one asks Batman, what's his most important tool in his tool belt.

It's his utility belt. And he has a tool for the job, especially if you watched 90 thinking sixties, Adam, West Batman, he has the right tool for every situation. Tools are important, but it's not where it starts. Right then you have enablement. And again, I look at enablement as enabling the tools and the strategy across the go-to-market functions.

Not individual coaching, not anything it's about that scalable process and tooling being trained to the team. And then ultimately insights is not data analytics is not building dashboards. It's actually looking at the stories and pulling out insights that will fuel the strategy. So if you think about that as a circle, that's the full picture of revenue operations.

When we started with tools, it was because, and to be quite honest SaaS companies. I don't think this is going to be shocking to anybody or anyone listening to this have quite a bit of an ego. And they thought they all had the right strategies to grow their business, which they do have the right strategies to grow their business.

They don't have the right strategies for how to scale that business, or they have the right strategies for how to grow. And so they came to Go Nimbly as tools experts, and over time, we always knew that we were implementing a long-term strategy. We were very much building an organization that could be their operations team internally, so they wouldn't even have to have anyone else.

So you always had to think about that strategy. And so now for our customers, we are either are the revenue operations team or we augment or strategically lead their operations team. And so that's changed over time. And really it's because the question kept being asked if we have the tool, how do we utilize it?

And so that pushed down into enablement and pushed back up into strategy. And then how do we know our strategy was successful? That leads us to insights. And since my background is in the thing I'm most passionate about is design thinking. And I read about it constantly. I believe in this theory called durability testing and durability testing is this idea that all systems that we build within organizations have a net.

And as long as you pick up a baseball and throw it at that net, and it doesn't tear through the net, mean that you can handle it. You are on the right path. Once something tears through it, you need to change your net. You need to change how it works. And thousands of streams work streams for very important businesses who are trying to billions of dollars a year have been through this durability test.

And none of them have tore a hole in it. There's not a problem that we have found. That we have not been able to solve with this methodology of looking at our skills this way. Balancing our internal teams, this way of being like, we need to be a generalist team that has these skills. That doesn't mean that every individual has all four of these skills, but ultimately as an organization, we have all these four skills. Things stop looking like nails and they start looking like complex problems.

The biggest problem that SaaS companies have is you go hire a Salesforce admin. Every problem has a Salesforce problem at that point. And we stopped realizing the beauty of operations is it's fucking complex. You're part designer, you're part operator, you're part psychologist in operations. And your job is to tie those things together, to deliver for your internal organization in hopes that it impacts your external organization buyers, right?

Your external people. It is one of the most fascinating jobs within any organization. And it severely needs to be up-leveled within all organizations and CEOs should know very clearly. And I, when I talk to my CEO friends, I say this operations is your secret weapon. It is what's going to win on a revenue team.

Your sales team is not your secret weapon. Your marketing is not your secret weapon. Your operations team, your revenue operations team is your secret rep. And as it comes to your go to market team, your product, your, your product managers or designers are your secret weapon over and product land.

But we're talking about your revenue team. It's not salespeople, it's not marketers. And I know I'm going to get shit for this. I love sales and marketing, but there's reason why these podcasts that you have exists because the skills you learn in sales, you can pick up and move to another company. Yep. You can pick up methodology and operations and move them to another company.

But how do I operate any one company? It's very specific to that company, given that it is very specific to that,

Tyler: [00:21:12] given that it is so specific. Jason, what are your thoughts on having someone in operations live inside the organization versus outsourcing parts of the operations process? Do you think it should be a hybrid model?

Do you lean one way or the other, given that, like you said, it is so specific, it, can it be transferred, from one organization to another?

Jason: [00:21:32] Okay, so this is good, at least to what I call the maturity model of operations. So the first level of maturity in operations, which you'll see in very early stage organizations is called intuition based operations, which is I have a feeling something's wrong.

I can, and I can go fix it. A good example of this as a sales rep walks in your room or your Salesforce is a tooling example and they say this fucking page layout makes no sense to me. And you go, yeah, it makes no sense. Let's change that. Now, both parties are happy because it doesn't probably didn't make sense and you just use your intuition to fix it.

Yep. And as you grow into B or C organizations, what becomes apparent is that you need to move to an experiential -based operations team. And this is when you hire people, you hire the ex. operator from LinkedIn and you start doing everything the way LinkedIn did it. Yep. This is a trouble area because it's really important area in your investors will push you to hire experienced people.

But it's also a trouble area because this is the time when people come in and they implement things that they know because they want a yes, check Mark on their value to the organization, their creation of a silo in itself that has nothing to do with your actual organization. So experience is important, but this is really where SaaS companies, especially enterprise B2B, late stage that we work with, go off the rails because they have a series of people who come in with experience who continuously change and innovate the process without context of the actual business.

And without the context of the business, your experience it's useless, your experience is incredibly powerful with context of the business. So how do you get context of the business? That's the question? So the third maturity of an operations team. Is customer-focused operations and what you do in that model.

And that's a model that Go Nimbly has, in my opinion, perfected through our methodologies. We are no, not the first people to say you need to be customer obsessed, but usually that means it's always way after the fact, before you can do anything about it and you can't really act on it, it's usually NPS scores or something to measure for that.

What we do is we actually take your opportunity data and we can take your lead data and all of this stuff. And we build it into a pipeline that we call the buying experience. And we look for emergent patterns in your actual data. As an example, someone in your organization might come up to you and say, it's really hard to meet my SLA to call someone And get them on the phone.

It's really hard. The data's not there. Salesforce is a mess dah, dah, dah, our intuition, and say, let's fix that. Let's go to our actual buying experience and look, are we actually having, and these are the four metrics. Are we having a conversion problem? A value problem, a volume problem or a velocity problem?

Those are the four KPIs of revenue operations, none other exist. It doesn't actually matter because if we can change one of those levers, we will impact revenue. And the goal of the revenue team is to revenue. Ops team is to impact revenue. So you go to it and you realize we don't have a pattern that's emerged in that area that person's talking about, but we do have a pattern later on where in stage three.

Of our process, which is negotiation as an example our conversions real low, and it's been low for the last six months. So as an operator, you would go, why is that you would go conduct some interviews, right? And you would interview both you're hearing your data. So you can interview customers or you could interview internally and you would find that the organization had made a strategic decision to start to sell up market.

They put sales reps on stuff without assuming and going, what do we need to do in order to. Sell up market to these sales reps. So suddenly all the sales reps are Coleen now, CEOs and CTOs, who guess what? Don't have their phone numbers listed, who don't have the data sources that you need. And yeah, all of your leads looked like complete fucking shit.

And that is the reality of it. And they're saying that the numbers in Salesforce are bad and the reality is the strategy for connecting to those people is bad. Has nothing to do with your tooling. And we could implement a thousand tools, but until the marketing and sales team went back and looked at that, and then the actual problem is downstream.

Natural problem is that as we went upstream, we didn't expand how we are going to make a new buying experience. We assumed our old buying experience was going to work. That is the problem. And that is the core that our revenue operations teams to do exempt they're the writers and directors and everything.

So they're looking at it and going, what's the story we're telling. What's the buying experience we're trying to give ? that buying experience is not working and we can see the data. Is not working with enterprise sales, it's just not working. The problem is not, let's not throw the bat, the baby out with the bath water, because that is working for this buying experience.

And so you can really equate buying experience to enterprise sales, velocity, sales, and so on. But what it really comes down to is in your business matching like engagement. So if. If for your medium-sized business, a cold outreach works a phone call, a demo, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that works. And all the people who say yes, engage to that pipeline, I would say that's a pretty healthy buying experience, but you also may have a velocity based experience where that does not work.

Or you might have something else that doesn't work. And so it's looking at these guesses and breaking down their actions. That really matter. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's where I'm at with that.

Tyler: [00:26:38] And it sounds like that's another reason to have the revenue ops team or leader have a seat at the executive table in order to be.

Aware of those type of strategy changes that are coming down the pipe so that they could preemptively get ahead of those and, be involved in that decision versus be reactive whenever Oh, it's broken because I, I didn't know that the strategy change, so

Jason: [00:26:59] is that ops revenue, operations should be the report to the CRO who has a direct link to the CEO or to if you're in a smaller organization where you don't have a CRO they should report to the CEO and it's its own business unit.

It's goal is to break down silos and create revenue impact for our customers. It is a partner of the go-to-market team, but it does not work for the go to marketing team. It works on behalf of the business and that truly is what operations is. And so that means it has to do a lot of solid work around prioritizing all the needs of the go to market team, which is a very complicated and hard.

Everyone on the revenue team, the go to market team side, their North star should be, are we hitting our goals in, are we exceeding our goals and everything else is a nice to have. So I always say it's about what you say no to that really matters. Yep. And yes, it's annoying. Alignment is a word we use all the time and I hate it because I don't care how hard something is internally.

You work at a job, people pay you to work, but if that hurdle is getting in the way of you servicing our customers, it needs to be eliminated. The job of the operator is not to make life internally easier. And I have to take a very hard stance on this. And I do believe that all operators, even me who believes this very firmly makes the life of our go to market team easier.

It makes it better. And that can't be the goal because that is leading you straight to an intuition experience-based maturity level. It's not leading you to a customer based maturity level. What's very super cool is once you become a customer based organization and you do decisions based on the customer, you'll find that it does line to your intuition and it does align to your experience.

And you can use both of those things. It's not like I'm saying those things are bad. I'm saying those things can be misleading on their own. And what you really need is the context of the, of someone that goes to see. Look, we have a problem from stage one to stage two, the BDRs are not, it's not a conversion problem that BDRs are really converting really well, but there is a volume problem.

And so we need operational tactics that increase volume now who it was now. Now you put your sales, marketing hat on and you go, okay, let's talk about what campaigns we're running to bring in net new. That's the way that the process works. You probably will end up to the same result, but the result that you end up at will have much more impact than if you were just, throwing rocks in the dark.

Tyler: [00:29:21] Yup. Yup. Except in a sense Jason, I know we could go on probably for a while, but we'll have to bring you back on at some point and do a part two. But how can my listeners find you online if they want to learn more about you?

Jason: [00:29:32] Sure. So go nimble. His blog is written for organizations who are thinking about emerging into revenue operations.

It's I like to think of it as a field guide for operators which is really powerful. So if you're learning about revenue operations, you want to get a job in revenue operations. It's a very good resource for that. So just go nimbly on our blog. If you are an executive or a leader, and you want to talk about implementing this.

This is not a sales thing. You can reach out to the sales team if you want to work with go nimbly. But I like to give my phone number. My phone number is four one five six six nine zero five 46. And I, to answer as many incoming text messages as I get, because I believe for businesses, this is the difference between being wildly successful and losing.

And I believe because my background is in product. I was a product manager for years. Some of the companies I worked at didn't know how to operate and sell the product they built. And there is nothing more frustrating as a product manager, as a CEO, as a tech founder, then you've built something really awesome that you can't sell.

And I think that's a travesty to innovation and I want to be able to step up and help. Organizations and help people understand how to navigate that world.

Tyler: [00:30:42] Awesome. We'll link to the website and the blog and put the number on the show notes as well. So check those out if you want to reach out to Jason.

Jason, thanks so much for coming on. Look forward to doing again some sometime soon.

Jason: [00:30:53] Thank you, Tyler. Come on my show. I'd love to have you on. Thank you so much

Tyler: [00:30:56] for listening to today's show. You can find all the links discussed and the show notes@thesaleslift.com. That's the T H G sales S a L E S. Lift L I F t.com have questions for me.

Email me@tyleratthesaleslift.com.

Jason: [00:31:16] We look forward to seeing you back

Tyler: [00:31:17] here next week, and we hope today's show brings you the sales lift. Your business needs. Remember ideas. Plus action equals results. You've got new ideas. Now it's time to take action

Jason: [00:31:31] and the results

Tyler: [00:31:32] will follow. See you next time.